‘Europe needs to take lead’ on Ukraine peace – Emily Thornberry
We spoke to Dame Emily Thornberry, chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: What is the point of all this unity if Donald Trump is still throwing hand grenades?
Emily Thornberry: Nobody said it’s going to be easy. It’s really difficult. And if you think back to Friday and how impossible it seemed and how down everyone was and how it looked like nothing was possible.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You think it’s better today?
Emily Thornberry: I think it’s better today. I think it’s better today. I think that, I actually think that Keir Starmer was pitch perfect over the weekend. I think starting to pull the Europeans together. We’ve still got a long way to go but I think that at least we’re trying. At least we’re going in the right direction.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But what actually changed at this summit? I mean, it was all just a restatement of where we are.
Emily Thornberry: Well, no, what changed was this recognition that Europe is going to need to do heavy lifting. Europe is going to need to take the lead on this. We are going to need to do much more than we have done. All of that is now bringing people together and a sort of seriousness of intent and a path through, a this is possible. We can do this. We don’t just sit back and just say, oh, isn’t it awful? No, no, we have to do something about it. And there is the beginnings of a plan.
You know, I understand Donald Trump’s impatience. And on the one hand, we have impatient Donald Trump. But on the other hand, we have Zelenskyy, who’s saying, I want to move forward to victory. We do all need to kind of start on the basis that we need peace, but we don’t want a loser’s peace. We need to have a peace that is actually fair and just for Ukraine and has guarantees.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Yes. I mean, there was lots of talk about Ukrainian sovereignty today in the House of Commons. And nobody said, is that the sovereignty of Ukraine as it was or Ukraine as it is today, with Russia occupying a percentage of land?
Emily Thornberry: Well, the other thing about sovereignty also is to what extent will they be allowed to make decisions about their future? So will they be able to join the EU?
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: What is it for you? I mean, if you say, we must preserve Ukrainian sovereignty, is it sovereignty with today’s frontlines or is it as it was in ‘22?
Emily Thornberry: So for me, Ukrainian sovereignty is their ability to be able to make decisions about their own future. I think that there will need to be negotiations in relation to land. I think that we need to be realistic about that. But we need to have a Ukraine which is safe and secure, and it’s fair and they need to have won. You know, they need to have won. They’ve sacrificed too many people. They’ve had three years of absolute misery and bravery on their part. And we can’t just walk away and just go, well, you know, hand it over to Putin.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: You raised the question of aid cuts to fund all this defence spending. How much concern is there that the damage to British overseas aid is much bigger than the uplift in defence spending, which is gesture politics?
Emily Thornberry: No, there has to be an increase in the amount of money we spend on defence. Without a doubt, the world has definitely changed.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But 2.5 doesn’t get us anywhere.
Emily Thornberry: But my concern is always that actually our security depends on all kinds of other things. It isn’t just on the hard power. Actually, things like making sure that a country is secure. You know, the way the country runs is, is that they have proper elections, that they have proper assistance. You know, that’s the kind of security that you also need. You need to have nation building. And Keir has himself said that he wants to prioritise Ukraine and Gaza and Sudan. And my concern is, is that the the cuts to the overseas development aid is so much that given that a third of it has to be spent on people claiming asylum and going into asylum hotels, that there’s so little left that by the time we pay our dues to the various international organisations, there’s very little left and there may not even be enough to do those three priorities and we may find ourselves. .
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: They keep talking about this. I’ve just come back from Sudan, our impact there is tiny.
Emily Thornberry: Well, yes and no. It depends where you look and it depends what it is that you’re looking at. But can I also say that I also am concerned that we may look back on this period as the time when Britain, and possibly other countries, walked away from places like Africa and left it to China.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: Well, isn’t that what we’re doing?
Emily Thornberry: Well, that’s the concern. That’s the concern. So that’s why we do need to look at this, too. But I completely understand that we need to be spending more on defence, and we have to step up. And actually, the threat to Europe through Ukraine is a threat to Europe and Europe has to take responsibility for that.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But when people think, well, given how much we’re spending and the impact of that on domestic spending, we’re still saying we need the Americans. If we still need the Americans, what’s the point of all this sacrifice?
Emily Thornberry: Because we need the Americans for specific things. So we need the Americans in Ukraine for air cover and for intelligence and for long range missiles. I mean, actually, those are the things we need them for. And so that’s what we need them to do. We need to be clear with them. You do that and we will do this. And we need to kind of have a plan together. We need to put it in front of Zelenskyy and say that this will work. And we need to say to Trump, this will work. Come on, let’s move forward together.
